Ron Herms

Ron Herms (PhD, Durham University) is a community advocate, public speaker, scholar, and teaching pastor who has served in leadership roles for over three decades. In higher education settings, his roles have included: academic dean, associate professor in biblical and theological studies, graduate program director, thesis advisor, and curriculum developer. Until recently he served Fresno Pacific University as Dean of the School of Humanities, Religion, and Social Sciences. He is currently serving as interim lead pastor for Butler Church in Fresno, CA. Ron’s research interests include early Jewish apocalyptic literature, the book of Revelation, Christian origins, justice studies, and contemporary apocalyptic expressions in popular culture (movies, art, literature, environmental concerns, race relations). He and his wife Kathy are parents of 5 adult children and 3 grand-pets.
You can find, follow, and get in touch with Ron on Blue Sky Social: @ronherms.bsky.social  

Transcripts and Resources

Interview Transcripts
Episode Transcript: American Christianity Feels So Political. Why?
Host: Bill Berger
Guest: Dr. Ron Herms
Introduction
Bill Berger: Welcome to the All Saints Podcast. I am incredibly excited today to welcome a close friend of mine to discuss some critical issues currently facing the church. Joining us is Dr. Ron Herms, a community advocate, scholar, and teaching pastor with over three decades of leadership experience in higher education.
Ron holds a PhD from Durham University and has served as an Academic Dean, Associate Professor in Biblical and Theological Studies, and Dean of the School of Humanities, Religion, and Social Sciences at Fresno Pacific University. His research focuses on early Jewish apocalyptic literature, the book of Revelation, Christian origins, and contemporary apocalyptic expressions in popular culture. Ron, thank you so much for being here.
Ron Herms: Thanks for the invitation, Bill, and a warm welcome to the All Saints community. It is wonderful to connect with you all.
The Disconnect in American Christianity
Bill Berger: To set the stage for our conversation, let's look at the current landscape. Many people—both within and outside the faith—intuitively sense a profound disconnect between the life and teachings of Jesus and the power-oriented, headline-grabbing rhetoric often seen in modern American Christianity. How did we get here?
Ron Herms: That is a vital question. This sense of tension or disconnect is a lived reality for many. There are historical reasons why American Christianity—particularly the Protestant Evangelical subset—has gained cultural and political prominence in ways that frequently seem at odds with the message of Jesus.
But this dynamic isn't new. For millennia, people of faith have wrestled with their proximity to imperial power and dominant cultures. Ancient Jewish and early Christian apocalyptic literature offers a particularly helpful window into how communities of faith have historically navigated these exact crises. These ancient texts pull back the curtain on human structures, offering a profound critique that we often ignore because, fundamentally, humans love power.
Understanding Empire and Apocalyptic Literature
Bill Berger: In theological spaces, we often look at portions of the Bible as "apocalypse." To help us understand the background, how do biblical texts define and address power structures, and what exactly is an "empire"?
Ron Herms: As a concept, "empire" refers to the aggressive expansion and imposition of political, military, cultural, and economic power over others. In the biblical world, this manifested as world powers like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and eventually, the Roman Empire.
Scriptural traditions do not view distinct nations or people groups as inherently evil. The serious theological issue arises specifically with empire—when the human desire for control metastasizes into a project of world domination. Empires maintain power by telling self-justifying origin myths and stories, which we would objectively recognize as propaganda.
The literary genre of "apocalypse" flourished during a specific 400-year window, starting a few centuries before Jesus and fading out a couple of centuries later. Biblical books like Daniel and Revelation are primary examples, alongside historical texts like 1 Enoch and 4 Ezra.
The word apocalypse literally means an unveiling or a revealing by surprise—like pulling back a heavy curtain to show a reality that was previously hidden. Apocalyptic literature was essentially resistance literature written by and for minoritized or marginalized communities in the crosshairs of an empire. To safely critique these terrifying regimes, authors used vivid, symbolic cosmic imagery—such as depicting oppressive world powers as destructive "beasts"—to reveal the true, spiritual nature of the systems oppression they were facing.
The Spectrum of Resistance
Bill Berger: When these systemic crises occur throughout history, communities naturally feel compelled to lift the lid and name the problem. What kind of strategies did these ancient authors propose for managing the threats of empire?
Ron Herms: Historically, apocalyptic movements occupied a wide spectrum of responses. Some advocated for immediate, armed revolution—such as the historical Maccabean Revolt, which militarily overthrew Greek overlords after the desecration of the temple. Others favored quiet subversion, while some argued for passive withdrawal, waiting exclusively for divine intervention.
Crucially, the texts that the early Church eventually canonized into our Christian Bible overwhelmingly emphasize non-violent resistance. This choice is fundamentally christological, anchored directly in the life, example, and teachings of Jesus, such as the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are the peacemakers." Apocalyptic authors employed three main strategies to help believers navigate the temptations and threats of worldly empires:
  1. Exposing the Spiritual Reality: They identified that behind corrupt human leaders and "beasts" lay deeper, spiritual forces of systemic evil. This reminded the community that the struggle wasn't merely against flesh and blood.
  2. Redefining Victory: They completely inverted the empire's definition of winning. In the apocalyptic vision, winning isn't acquiring wealth, status, or raw power. Victory is defined by self-sacrificial faithfulness, modeled by Jesus' willingness to lay down his life for his enemies.
  3. Redefining Leadership: They rejected celebrity and authoritarian power, returning instead to the model of a genuine shepherd, directly critiquing self-serving religious and political leaders who act as "thieves and outlaws."
End-Times Attraction and Modern Dispensationalism
Bill Berger: Moving our focus to modern America, there is a massive cultural fascination within the evangelical church surrounding end-times theology, "the Rapture," and a hyper-fixation on the geopolitics of modern Israel. Where does this specific theology originate?
Ron Herms: The current rhetoric of Christian nationalism and access to power has been developing for well over a century. It relies heavily on a specific system of end-times theology called dispensationalism, which has only existed for about 150 to 175 years. It is not an ancient baseline New Testament theology; rather, it was developed in the 1800s by a Plymouth Brethren pastor named John Nelson Darby, who synthesized his own eclectic scriptural readings with the visions of a young girl in his congregation.
Dispensationalism views history as a series of distinct ages or "dispensations" in which God works differently. According to this framework, the current age focuses on the global Church, but the final, culminating stage requires the physical, geographic, and national restoration of Israel.
This system reverse-engineers current events by searching for scriptural soundbites to proof-text modern political realities. For instance, politicians frequently cite Genesis 12:1–3—where God promises Abraham that "all nations will be blessed through you"—to claim that global blessing depends on unquestioning, blanket geopolitical support for the modern nation-state of Israel.
Theologically, this relies on two significant fallacies:
  • Misinterpreting the Covenant: In Genesis, Israel is not the final object of blessing whom everyone must serve; Israel is intended to be the vehicle through which God passes blessing onward to serve all nations.
  • Conflating Biblical Identity with Modern Nation-States: It conflates the biblical, theological concept of Israel with a modern, secular nation-state and its military-political machinery.
Christian Zionism and Geopolitical Reality
Bill Berger: This theological conflation clearly drives a lot of American voting behavior and unqualified political alignment. How has this impacted the church's witness?
Ron Herms: As a scholar of early Jewish literature, the history, geography, and texts of the land are deeply important to me. Everyone has a fundamental right to live in peace and safety—Jewish people, Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Muslims alike.
However, the rise of modern Christian Zionism in America has been heavily co-opted by a political and financial apparatus. Decades ago, political strategists recognized that American Evangelicalism possessed a ready-built dispensationalist eschatology that could be easily mobilized for lobbying purposes.
This alliance greased the skids for the church to provide unqualified endorsement of structural injustice, including systemic inequality and apartheid conditions affecting millions of Palestinians who have lived in generational refugee camps for decades. By masking a complex geopolitical reality behind a selective reading of prophecy, the American church has frequently traded its prophetic voice for proximity to political influence.
The Evolution of Political Evangelicalism
Bill Berger: To wrap up, what historical forces ultimately coalesced to bring conservative evangelicalism into its current, highly visible alignment with modern political movements, such as the MAGA movement?
Ron Herms: This alignment is the result of a deliberate, 50-year evolution. If we look honestly at the history of the late 20th century, the foundational catalysts for the religious right and the privatization of Christian education were heavily tied to a backlash against the Civil Rights movement and the integration mandates of Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.
While the issue of abortion was later utilized as a highly effective unifying focal point to coalesce conservative voters, the underlying architectural drive of the movement was an effort to retain cultural dominance and white institutional power. When we refuse to honestly confront our historical flaws, the political pendulum whiplashes into deep toxicity, racism, and profound mutual suspicion.
We do not need to invent a brand-new way to fix this current broken reality. True templates for faithful, prophetic resistance have long existed within the history of the Black Church in America and Latin American liberation theology. These communities have consistently shown us how to successfully challenge corrupt power, pursue genuine justice, and walk out a non-violent Christian witness without withdrawing from the world or compromising the gospel. The white American church simply needs to humble itself, listen, and learn from them.
Conclusion
Bill Berger: Addressing these deep-seated systemic issues with honesty and repentance is imperative if we hope to see true healing in the American church. Ron, thank you so much for your insight, clarity, and compassionate approach to these heavy topics.
We have included Ron’s contact information and additional resources in the show notes for anyone who wants to engage further. Thank you all for listening to the All Saints Podcast. Have a wonderful day.
Christian Nationalism / Christian Right - Sources
Christian Nationalism / Christian Right
Select Bibliography 2026 
Monographs 
  • Alberta, Tim. The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age  of Extremism. New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 2023. 
  • Boyd, Greg A. The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power is  Destroying the Church. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2005. 
  • Butler, Anthea. White Christian Racism: The Politics of Morality in America. Second  edition. Chapel Hill, NC: The University of North Carolina Press, 2024 (first  edition, 2021). 
  • De La Torre, Miguel A., editor. Faith and Resistance in the Age of Trump. Maryknoll, NY:  Orbis Books, 2017. 
  • Denker, Angela. Red State Christians: Understanding the Voters Who Elected Donald  Trump. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2019. 
  • Du Mez, Kristin Kobes. Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a  Faith and Fractured a Nation. New York: Liveright Publishing Corporation (W.W.  Norton & Company), 2020. 
  • Fea, John. Believe Me: The Evangelical Road to Donald Trump. Grand Rapids, MI: Wm.  B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2019. 
  • Onishi, Bradley. Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism  – and What Comes Next. New York: Broadleaf Books, 2023. 
  • Strait, Drew J. Strange Worship: Six Steps for Challenging Christian Nationalism. Eugene,  OR: Cascade, 2024. 
  • Sutton, Matthew Avery. American Apocalypse: A History of Modern Evangelicalism.  Cambridge, MA: Belknapp Press of Harvard University Press, 2014. 
  • Wallis, Jim. God’s Politics: A New Vision for Faith and Politics in America. New York:  HarperSanFrancisco, 2005. 
  • Whitehead, Andrew L. and Samuel L. Perry. Taking Back America for God: Christian  Nationalism in the United States. New York: Oxford University Press, 2020. 
  • Whitehead, Andrew L. American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel  and Threatens the Church. Brazos Press, 2026.
  • Herms Christian Nationalism Select Bibliography Page 1 of 2 
Video / Streaming Resources:
  • Mrs. America (FX on Hulu): https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/mrs-america The Family (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/title/80063867 
Journalists / Scholars:
  • - Tim Alberta (The Atlantic) https://www.bytimalberta.com/ 
  • - Anthea Butler (University of Pennsylvania) https://uncpress.org/author/9773- anthea-butler/ 
  • - John Fea (Messiah College) https://www.messiah.edu/info/23721/our_faculty/2371/john_fea 
  • - Bradley Onishi (University of San Francisco) 
  • https://www.usfca.edu/faculty/bradley-onishi 
  • - Jeff Sharlet (Dartmouth College) https://english.dartmouth.edu/people/jeff-sharlet 
  • - Andrew Whitehead (Indiana University) 
  • https://liberalarts.indianapolis.iu.edu/departments/sociology/directory/andrew whitehead/ 
  • - Jemar Tisby (Independent Scholar, Author, Speaker) https://jemartisby.com
  • Herms Christian Nationalism Select Bibliography Page 2 of 2 
Apocalypse and Empire Reading
Select Bibliography:
  • Aune, David E. Prophecy in Early Christianity and the Ancient Mediterranean World. Grand  Rapids: Eerdmans, 1983. 
  • Bauckham, Richard. The Theology of the Book of Revelation. Cambridge: CUP, 1993.
  • Blackwell, Ben C., John K. Goodrich, & Jason Maston, eds. Reading Revelation in Context: John’s  Apocalypse and Second Temple Judaism. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2019.
  • Carey, Greg and L. Gregory Bloomquist, eds. Vision and Persuasion: Rhetorical Dimensions of  Apocalyptic Discourse. St. Louis: Chalice Press, 1999.
  • Collins, John J. Seers, Sybils, and Sages in Hellenistic-Roman Judaism. Leiden: Brill, 1997.
  • Cook, Stephen L. Prophecy & Apocalypticism: The Postexilic Social Setting. Minneapolis: Fortress  Press, 1995.
  • Dahill, Lisa E. and James B, Martin-Schramm, eds. Eco-Reformation: Grace and Hope for a  Planet in Peril. Eugene: Cascade, 2016.
  • Gorman, Michael J. Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship & Witness; Following the  Lamb into the New Jerusalem. Eugene: Wipf & Stock, 2011.
  • Horsley, Richard A. Revolt of the Scribes: Resistance and Apocalyptic Origins. Minneapolis:  Fortress Press, 2010.
  • Kraybill, J. Nelson. Apocalypse and Allegiance: Worship, Politics, and Devotion in the Book of  Revelation. Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007.
  • Middleton, Richard J. The Liberating Image. Grand Rapids: Brazos Press, 2005.
  • Middleton, Richard J. A New Heaven and a New Earth: Reclaiming Biblical Eschatology. Grand  Rapids: BakerAcademic, 2014.
  • Peterson, Eugene. Reversed Thunder: The Revelation of John and the Praying Imagination. San  Francisco: Harper Collins, 1989.
  • Spilsbury, Paul. The Throne, The Lamb, and the Dragon (Downers Grove: IVP, 2002).
Herms Apocalypse & Empire Select Bibliography 

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: What is Christian Nationalism?
Context: Ron talks about the co-opting of the White House and Pentagon with the rhetoric of Christian nationalism.
Definition:
Christian Nationalism is a political ideology that believes America was founded as a strictly Christian nation, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. It blends patriotic identity with Christian identity, essentially teaching that to be a "good American" means preserving specific conservative Christian laws and cultural dominance.
Q: What is Zionism (and Christian Zionism)?
Context: Bill asks to unpack the unqualified support for the modern nation of Israel and the rise of Christian Zionism.
Definition: Zionism is a political and nationalist movement that began in the late 19th century supporting the creation and protection of a public, physical homeland for Jewish people in Israel. Christian Zionism is a specific religious belief among Christians that the return of Jewish people to the Holy Land in 1948 was the direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and that Christians have a religious obligation to politically and financially support the modern Israeli government to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus.
Q: What does "Apocalyptic Literature" mean?
Context: Ron explains that the books of Daniel and Revelation are the purest examples of this genre.
Definition: In modern movies, "apocalypse" means the end of the world, explosions, and disaster. But the ancient Greek word apokalypsis simply means "an unveiling" or "revealing a secret by surprise." Apocalyptic literature was a style of ancient writing used by oppressed people to pull back the curtain on corrupt empires, showing them that worldly rulers are temporary and that God sees their suffering. It was written to offer comfort and hope during a crisis, not to serve as a literal timeline for 21st-century global politics.
Q: What is Dispensationalism?
Context: Ron notes that the clock started for dispensationalists in 1948.
Definition: Developed in the 1830s, Dispensationalism is a popular theology that views history as a series of different eras (or "dispensations") where God uses different rules to test humanity. It splits God's focus into two completely separate projects: Israel and the Church. In pop culture, it’s the exact system behind the Left Behind books and movies—focusing heavily on a secret "Rapture" where Christians are suddenly evacuated from earth before a chaotic tribulation.
Q: What is Eschatology?
Context: Ron references a "fascination with a certain brand of eschatology."
Definition: Pronounced es-kuh-tah-luh-jee, this is simply the branch of theology concerned with the "last things." It is the study of death, judgment, heaven, hell, the final destiny of the soul, and the ultimate future of humanity.
Q: What are the "Deuterocanonical" texts or the "Apocrypha"?
Context: Ron mentions reading about religious resistance in the Maccabean literature found in Catholic Bibles.
Definition: These are a collection of ancient Jewish books written between the Old and New Testaments. While they are included in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, they were removed from modern Protestant Bibles. They provide vital historical background on the intense political and military struggles Jesus’ ancestors faced just before He was born.
Q: What is "Liberation Theology"?
Context: Ron credits Hispanic traditions coming out of liberation theology for showing a non-violent template for change.
Definition: This is a Christian movement that began in the mid-20th century, primarily within the Latin American Catholic church. It emphasizes the teachings of Jesus as a mandate to fight for social, economic, and political justice, viewing the Gospel directly through the eyes of the poor, marginalized, and oppressed.
Q: What is the "Lectionary"?
Context: Ron concludes by referencing a passage he read "just this last week in the lectionary reading."
Definition: A lectionary is a pre-arranged, standardized calendar of Bible readings used by churches worldwide over a three-year cycle. It ensures that congregations read through the overarching story of Scripture together every single week, rather than a pastor only picking their favorite verses to preach on.